Field Dispatch

How to Publish a Children's Book (Insights from Author Marlee Kostiner)

Interviews Published Children's Book Authors Publishing & Self-Publishing

Trail notes

The primary focus of this podcast episode revolves around the intricate dynamics of children's book publishing, as articulated by Marlee Kostiner, the founder of Garden Wolf Publishing House.

As a self-published author who transitioned into publishing, Marlee elucidates the nuanced distinctions between self-publishing and independent publishing, emphasizing the importance of understanding one’s unique publishing journey.

Throughout our dialogue, we explore the multifaceted processes involved in turning a manuscript into a published work, including editing, storyboarding, and the selection of illustrators.

Additionally, Marlee shares her insights on the significance of creating value-added content, which enhances the reader's experience and fosters deeper connections with the material.

This episode serves as a comprehensive resource for aspiring children's book authors, providing clarity on the path to successful publication and the myriad opportunities that lie beyond merely selling books.

The podcast episode featuring Marlee Costener, founder of Garden Wolf Publishing House, offers an illuminating perspective on the multifaceted nature of children's book publishing.

The discussion begins with Marlee reflecting on her journey from a self-published author to a publisher, illustrating how her initial foray into writing children's literature compelled her to create a platform for others to share their stories.

This transition is presented not merely as a career move but as a heartfelt commitment to nurturing the creative expressions of aspiring authors who may lack the resources or knowledge to navigate the publishing landscape on their own.

Marlee's insights provide listeners with a deeper understanding of the motivations that drive independent publishing and the importance of fostering a community that supports diverse voices in literature.

Central to the conversation is the distinction between self-publishing and independent publishing, a topic that Marlee delves into with clarity and nuance.

She articulates her philosophy as a hybrid publisher, emphasizing a model that prioritizes transparency and author empowerment.

By opting not to charge royalties and instead adopting a fee-based structure, Marlee enables authors to maintain creative control over their works while alleviating the financial burdens commonly associated with traditional publishing.

This approach is particularly significant in an industry where many authors struggle to achieve financial sustainability, and Marlee's candid discussion of these realities serves to demystify the publishing process for her audience.

As the dialogue unfolds, Marlee shares practical advice for aspiring authors, encouraging them to view their books as more than mere publications but as tools for broader engagement and impact.

She discusses the potential for authors to leverage their expertise in workshops or speaking engagements, thereby enhancing their visibility and connection with audiences.

The episode concludes with a strong message of encouragement for those contemplating their literary journeys, underscoring the belief that with the right support and guidance, their stories can find a place in the hearts and minds of readers.

Takeaways:

Marlee Kostiner, the founder of Garden Wolf Publishing House, emphasizes the importance of understanding the publishing process.
In the podcast, we explore the distinctions between self-publishing, independent publishing, and hybrid publishing models.
Marlee discusses her journey as an author and the inception of her publishing company, which began with her own book.
The conversation highlights the necessity for aspiring authors to consider their goals and the purpose behind their book projects.
Marlee advocates for the inclusion of value-added resources at the back of children's books to enhance their educational impact.
The episode underscores the significance of building a strong author platform and engaging in marketing strategies beyond merely selling books.

Links referenced in this episode:

Companies mentioned in this episode:

Garden Wolf Publishing House

<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:05:18</time>
Hi, I'm Marlee Costiner and I'm the founder of Garden Wolf Publishing House.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:05:22</time>
Thanks Marlee, for appearing on the Adventures in the Heart of Children's Book Authors podcast.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:05:27</time>
Marlee, as mentioned, she has her own book publishing company, Garden Wool Publishing House.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:05:33</time>
In some of our past episodes, I've brought you different children's book professionals.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:05:39</time>
We've had guests on talking about book formatting, website designers, and today we're going to discuss children's book publishing.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:05:49</time>
Marley is going to give us her take on book publishing.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:05:53</time>
Folks, you may find that Marley and I may be a little conflicted in our interpretation of self publishing and independent publishing, but that's the beautiful thing about life.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:06:04</time>
So we're going to jump in and talk about that.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:06:06</time>
Over half of our children's book author guests have referred to themselves as self published book book authors or hybrid children's book published authors.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:06:16</time>
I'm really excited to talk to Marley as she's not only managing her own publishing company called Garden Wolf Publishing House, but Marley is also the book author and was a guest on episode 76 and she discussed her children's book namuste.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:06:34</time>
Marley, the first thing I want to talk to you about is it's almost the chicken or the egg.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:06:39</time>
In other words, did your children's book come first or did your children's book publishing company come first?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:06:46</time>
Good question.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:06:47</time>
Definitely my book, my publishing company only started because of my book.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:06:53</time>
I started out fully as a self published author.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:06:56</time>
I call it myself a self published author.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:06:59</time>
I think you call it independent, independent, published.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:07:03</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:07:03</time>
A lot of people say indie, like more abbreviated.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:07:05</time>
But yes, I started out just doing it myself.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:07:09</time>
I created Garden Wolf Publishing to publish my own book and I originally planned just to publish my own books because I've written a ton of them.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:07:18</time>
Before we go too deep into it, I just love the name Garden Wolf Publishing House.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:07:25</time>
So you have to tell us the story behind that because there has to be a story behind your name.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:07:30</time>
There is, yes.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:07:32</time>
So it's very close to my heart.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:07:33</time>
I came up with it because I really wanted to incorporate my kids.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:07:37</time>
So I have two kids, Parker and Hudson.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:07:40</time>
Garden is related to the name Parker because Parker the definition means keeper of the gardens.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:07:48</time>
And my second son Hudson's middle name is Wolf.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:07:52</time>
So Garden Wolf.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:07:54</time>
When I came up with that idea, I thought, okay, it pays homage to both my kids.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:07:59</time>
But also when I think of a wolf in a garden, it just evokes this kind of fairy tale like imagery that I feel is very beautiful and associated with, with the creativity of children's literature.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:08:15</time>
You got a red hood and cape.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:08:18</time>
Maybe my costume bin.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:08:20</time>
I'm curious that you told us about.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:08:23</time>
Your book came first, and then it evolved.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:08:26</time>
Why the.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:08:27</time>
I don't want to say the complete pivots.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:08:29</time>
Cause I'm sure you're gonna talk to us about writing more children's books, but why the pivot to Garden Wool Publishing house?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:08:37</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:08:38</time>
So I went through the whole process of creating my own book, and then once I got to the point where I had my book and I was promoting it, I was doing events all the time.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:08:49</time>
I was doing craft fairs and holiday fairs and book fair, like lots of fairs.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:08:54</time>
I was visiting lots of school schools.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:08:56</time>
And so what really surprised me and was really unexpected is that whenever I was doing these events, I was regularly having people approach me and ask me about the publishing process and telling me that they had written a book or they had always dreamed of writing a children's book.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:09:14</time>
That was the first sign that I had, which really took me by surprise that there are so many people out there who have thought about publishing a children's book or have even written a book and just have thought that they would never have an opportunity to publish it.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:09:30</time>
So I think that by seeing me at this event selling my own book, it made a switch flick for them that maybe this might be possible for them.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:09:43</time>
That's not exactly how I started my publishing house, because my very first author that I published is somebody who I know through my community is an acquaintance and had seen all the promotion that I'd done for my book, purchased a book from me, and had seen my website where I described my mission and my values, which really focuses on developing books that help kids learn social emotional skills.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:10:14</time>
And so when she saw my website, she had written in a book and was thinking, was planning on just doing everything on her own.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:10:24</time>
But when she came across my website, she reached out to me and said, I feel like you're a perfect fit for the book that I wrote and would you consider publishing my books?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:10:36</time>
I was shocked and very honored and just hadn't really considered that as a possibility before that moment.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:10:46</time>
Tell us the name of the first book that you published under your Garden Wool publishing house.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:10:52</time>
And you can tell us the name of the author too.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:10:54</time>
Sure.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:10:55</time>
The book is called Mischievous Maisie, and Maisie is her oldest daughter.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:11:00</time>
And the author's name is Tracy Schwartz.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:11:04</time>
You can find a link to her book on my website.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:11:07</time>
If you go and click on books, you'll see a list of the books I've published.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:11:13</time>
I Still have to add a few.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:11:14</time>
Cause I've actually published three books last month, so I have to add those.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:11:18</time>
The book is about Maisie, and it's showing Maisie going through different scenarios where she's exerting her independence, where she's being very creative, where she's doing her own thing in such a way that many parents can relate, can be very stressful for parents, or can maybe make parents feel, oh, no, not again.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:11:48</time>
For example, on one of the pages, she's drawing a beautiful canvas of art with her spaghetti sauce on the wall.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:11:56</time>
And so on one page, it will show how she always has to wear tutus, she always has to wear pink and dress herself and wears mismatched socks.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:12:06</time>
But then on the next page, it will show how as an adult, she has grown up to have a very strong sense of self and that she loves fashion and doesn't care what other people think or for the spaghetti sauce.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:12:24</time>
When she grows up, she'll become an artist and know how to be creative.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:12:29</time>
So it juxtaposes these very common scenarios that kids will get themselves into.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:12:38</time>
And I love how you've gotten yourself invested.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:12:41</time>
And that's what I want the audience to realize, that Marlee has a real passion.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:12:47</time>
You can hear it in how she's describing how she gets engaged with the story, which in her children's book publishing business, for someone listening and especially an aspiring children's book authority or someone who's reading children's books and never really thought of themselves as an author, and maybe this podcast show triggers that.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:13:10</time>
I want to make sure that we give everybody the chance to understand what the different ways you can publish are and get Marley's opinion on that.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:13:22</time>
A couple of my guests, and I've almost interviewed 80 children's published children's book authors.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:13:27</time>
Now, we've had a couple of traditionally published children's book authors where they actually have found a publishing house that.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:13:36</time>
That publishes, takes on all the rights and publishes their book.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:13:40</time>
And then we've had this balance between what I refer to as independently published and self published or hybrid published, where someone.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:13:51</time>
You still keep all the rights to your book, but you go out and you find a company that then takes on, like, the general manager's role for your book.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:14:01</time>
Marlee, I know you and I have had this discussion, folks.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:14:04</time>
We had a little bit of a discussion before the show started, but explain to us what your Garden Wolf Publishing house is and the role it plays with an aspiring children's book author or authority.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:14:22</time>
A children's book author?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:14:24</time>
Yes, absolutely.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:14:25</time>
And I feel as though I can give a general overview, but just I feel like I need to give a little bit of context just because my approach is actually quite specific and niche.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:14:37</time>
And although in.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:14:39</time>
In some ways I fit the hybrid category in the sense that it's the author that's funding the expenses of the publishing process.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:14:49</time>
And I do charge for my services, I don't charge a royalty.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:14:54</time>
Some hybrid publishers do charge a small royalty from what I've seen.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:14:58</time>
Generally it's reversed from traditional where usually in traditional publishing the author would get maybe between 8 and 15% of sales.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:15:09</time>
Whereas in hybrid publishing I've seen a lot of times it's reversed and the publisher will take around that.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:15:15</time>
But some hybrid publishers don't take a royalty.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:15:18</time>
I don't.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:15:19</time>
And most of the children's book hybrid self published authors that I've talked to, no one has ever told me that someone's taken or heard of it before.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:15:28</time>
But any author that I've talked to so far hasn't mentioned that the self publisher or hybrid publisher takes a royalty.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:15:36</time>
They certainly take a fee for all their work though.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:15:39</time>
As the project manager or the general manager.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:15:42</time>
Yes.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:15:43</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:15:43</time>
So that's really interesting to hear because there's so many different publishers out there and I've done a lot of research to see and I've noticed that there are quite a few that do take a royalty.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:15:55</time>
And I found that interesting.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:15:56</time>
So that's good to know.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:15:57</time>
Interesting that they haven't been taking a royalty.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:16:00</time>
For me, there were many reasons why I decided not to take a royalty.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:16:05</time>
And there's just so much to talk about.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:16:08</time>
I don't know where to begin.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:16:09</time>
Give us the big picture, Marlee.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:16:11</time>
Tell it.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:16:12</time>
If I come to you and I say, marley, I'm an aspiring children's book author and I've written a story and I think I've got a beautiful story.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:16:23</time>
Okay, let's go.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:16:25</time>
So take me from that.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:16:26</time>
When I contact you and I had this story, now I want to get published.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:16:31</time>
Perfect.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:16:31</time>
So in that first call, when I meet somebody, the first thing I do is I try to get a sense of what their priorities are and what their goals are and why they want to publish a book.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:16:44</time>
And also, obviously, I want to know what the book is about, where the inspiration came from.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:16:51</time>
Because it's really just me.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:16:53</time>
I'm like a solo entrepreneur and I do everything.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:16:58</time>
So I don't have the capacity to take on every single person that would come my way.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:17:05</time>
And not just that, but I feel that to be a high quality publisher it's important to stay true to the niche that I'm building and to work with people who I can most benefit.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:17:20</time>
Let's understand role if you can be a little more specific, because I always tell people there's only between five and eight major functions to publish a children's book.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:17:35</time>
Because I know that.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:17:35</time>
Because I published two of our own.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:17:38</time>
Take us through that.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:17:39</time>
I come to you with my book.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:17:42</time>
It's not edited, but I have a story written.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:17:44</time>
So now take us through the steps.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:17:47</time>
Sure.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:17:48</time>
But one thing I just want to make really clear is that I really always start by making sure that person and that story is a good fit for Garden Wolf Publishing.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:17:58</time>
I always start with a conversation to help educate on the different options because sometimes doing it on their own makes more sense or sometimes going in a traditional route makes more sense.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:18:10</time>
And a lot of times people come to me and the first thing I say is, how much do you know about the publishing industry?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:18:16</time>
Do you know about the different options?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:18:17</time>
And 99% they say, I know nothing.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:18:21</time>
Please educate me.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:18:22</time>
And another thing I want to emphasize is that Garden Wolf Publishing specializes in working with experts.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:18:30</time>
Experts who are specialists in a certain field, who are not professional writers and who have an idea but have a full time job.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:18:42</time>
I primarily focus on working with mental health experts.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:18:45</time>
I primarily work with psychologists and psychiatrists.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:18:50</time>
Those are aspiring children's book authors in that field.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:18:54</time>
Is that correct?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:18:56</time>
Correct.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:18:57</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:18:57</time>
Okay, so just so everybody, so I come to you, I'm in that field.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:19:01</time>
I've written a children's book.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:19:03</time>
Now we've qualified that.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:19:05</time>
I'm a perfect fit for you.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:19:07</time>
Take us through the process next.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:19:10</time>
Perfect.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:19:10</time>
So sometimes someone comes to me with an idea, but they don't know how to write it.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:19:15</time>
If that's the case, then they might hire me in addition to the process to help with the concept development and ghost writing.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:19:24</time>
And those are services that I offer for those who need it.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:19:28</time>
A lot of times people come with a manuscript ready.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:19:31</time>
So if they come and they have a manuscript ready, the very first step is editing.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:19:36</time>
My background is editing.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:19:38</time>
That's a very important part of the process for me.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:19:41</time>
And so we always start there.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:19:43</time>
And one thing that's really important for me as an editor in going through the editing process, thing that I've noticed that's key is that through going the first round of edits and then going back, it's really an important step to helping to figure out what the author's most important parts of their story are.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:20:09</time>
And sometimes they don't even know until an editor removes it.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:20:13</time>
I remember you were talking about, like, caboose and how caboose was really special and meaningful.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:20:19</time>
And the fact that you spelled it with a K was very special because of your granddaughter's name.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:20:25</time>
And so an editor maybe might edit that.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:20:30</time>
And then through you saying, no, it has to be this because of this reason.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:20:34</time>
Oh, that's the very first important step of figuring out what's the inspiration and what's the personal connection of what makes this very special for the author.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:20:43</time>
I want to talk to you about editing for just a moment because.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:20:47</time>
Yes.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:20:47</time>
When your most children's books are between five hundred and a thousand words.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:20:54</time>
Yes.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:20:55</time>
And they're a picture book.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:20:56</time>
So I just want to make sure the definition of the books that you're primarily working on that are children's books, what's the format look like?
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:21:05</time>
So what's the number of words and how many illustrations?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:21:10</time>
Yeah, so it really varies.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:21:12</time>
I really pride myself on not staying within the traditional constraints and making things work with whatever works for that individual.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:21:21</time>
But as a general rule, a standard picture book is around 32 pages.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:21:28</time>
But I would say the books that I've created are anywhere between 32 and 48 pages.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:21:36</time>
Sometimes they end up being a bit longer.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:21:39</time>
And as long as they're within the.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:21:42</time>
The right multiple needed for printing, that's a part of it, too.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:21:46</time>
We start with editing, and then from there we go into story.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:21:51</time>
Now that we've got an idea from you of a range, and I'm glad you mentioned that, Marlee, because as a published children's book author, we certainly have exceeded the 32 page limit.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:22:04</time>
And one of the reasons is.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:22:05</time>
And Marlee and I will get into it, because we're going to talk a little bit about her book and the idea of value added resources at the end of the book.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:22:15</time>
In our case, we did that.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:22:16</time>
We added value added at the end of our book based on just our feeling and what we were trying to convey through the book.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:22:25</time>
Thank you, Marley, for sharing that.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:22:26</time>
We're 32 to about 48 pages.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:22:30</time>
And now talk to us about words.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:22:33</time>
Is there a range?
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:22:34</time>
Because if I said to you, you know what, Marley, I got a children's book, it's 48 pages, and I got 24,000 words.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:22:42</time>
What would you say to me if
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:22:44</time>
somebody came to me?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:22:45</time>
I would say, that is not a picture book, that's a chapter book.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:22:51</time>
And I. I was just joking with that.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:22:53</time>
But I just like to take you back.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:22:54</time>
So now that you've given us in a range of 32 to 40, 48 pages.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:23:00</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:23:00</time>
Give us a range in terms of how many words.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:23:04</time>
I'd say generally, on average, maybe 300 to 500 words for a picture book.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:23:09</time>
But sometimes it can be a little longer, like it can be.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:23:15</time>
I did a unique book with a psychologist where it is a story as well as a workbook combined, so for her to use in her practice.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:23:25</time>
And it's for slightly older children, so it's for kids age 7 to 12.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:23:30</time>
Those books are quite a bit longer than a rhyming book that I did earlier this year.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:23:36</time>
That's for much younger children.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:23:38</time>
One might be 300 words, one might be 1200 words.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:23:43</time>
But the thing that's more important to me than word count, and I don't get bogged down in word count, personally, I really look more at, who are we writing this for?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:23:52</time>
How old are they?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:23:53</time>
What's the topic?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:23:55</time>
Are we being concise enough for the audience that we're writing for?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:23:59</time>
Do we have all the information that we need?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:24:01</time>
And also, in addition to that, it's very important to recognize that when you're doing a picture book, there are two ways that concepts are communicated.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:24:11</time>
There's the words and there's the visuals.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:24:13</time>
And sometimes you need to communicate part of the concept, part only through visuals.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:24:19</time>
And there's no need to include words for it.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:24:22</time>
It's really a matter of brainstorming and strategizing and planning ahead.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:24:28</time>
And that's the beautiful thing.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:24:29</time>
I don't want to lose that thought.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:24:32</time>
Because what you're saying, Marley, is so important.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:24:34</time>
It's really, when it comes to a children's book, a picture tells a thousand words.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:24:40</time>
And so you don't need to put a thousand words on a picture.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:24:44</time>
Yep.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:24:45</time>
And so that.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:24:45</time>
I think that's exactly what you're saying here.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:24:48</time>
Exactly.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:24:49</time>
And that's why you'll find picture books, especially board books, for babies.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:24:53</time>
I have a book that was my son's favorite book called Hug, and it just said hug on every page, but with different exclamation points.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:25:01</time>
And it was just a visual of a monkey looking for its mom wanting a hug.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:25:07</time>
And so reading the book was just me saying hug in different inflections.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:25:12</time>
And one of my son's favorite books when he was little, I always say, a picture book for littles can have no words, but it can't have no pictures.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:25:23</time>
Do you think of yourself now?
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:25:25</time>
We've talked about editing when I and I want to talk us some more of your rules, but do you think of yourself more as a project manager or general manager?
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:25:35</time>
Or does that change depending on the.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:25:39</time>
The author and what they're trying to do?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:25:42</time>
I consider myself very much a jack of trades just because I'm a small business and I wear every single hat.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:25:50</time>
I am a different role depending on the stage of the process.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:25:53</time>
But I will say I. I definitely am project manager the entire time, because I think a really key reason why an author will go with me is because the efficiency of not having to guess and figure out the order of which to do things and the little details that somebody who's never published before wouldn't know to think of, because you don't know what you don't know.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:26:21</time>
So just from beginning to end, I'm laying out a timeline of when things need to get done and when decisions need to be made in advance so that we're not looking back and being like, oh, no, we didn't decide the dimensions of the book, but we hired the illustrator and they started and they're using the wrong dimensions.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:26:40</time>
Let's take you back for a second.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:26:42</time>
First comes the editing part.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:26:44</time>
Yes.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:26:45</time>
And you take on that role because of your background.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:26:48</time>
Yes.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:26:49</time>
Okay.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:26:49</time>
So now we've worked together, We've got this story flushed out.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:26:54</time>
It's edited 95%.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:26:58</time>
Now what?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:27:00</time>
After we're really happy with the manuscript and it's good to go, then I set up a meeting and we brainstorm for storyboarding.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:27:09</time>
So storyboarding is when we figure out what text is going to be on what page and then what visual is going to accompany it.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:27:18</time>
And a part of that is also helping the author figure out what art style they like.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:27:23</time>
So a lot of times, authors will come and they'll have an idea or they'll have an example of a book.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:27:28</time>
So, sorry, I want to make sure that the audience understands.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:27:31</time>
So are you the one doing the storyboards, or you do it so you don't bring it in?
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:27:37</time>
Illustrator at this point, no, storyboarding is
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:27:40</time>
not the actual illustration.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:27:42</time>
It's just the planning for illustration.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:27:44</time>
You don't bring anybody else in.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:27:47</time>
I just want people to understand that at this point, if you're working with Marlee, you've got the editing done, you're doing the story.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:27:55</time>
Storyboarding.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:27:56</time>
Yes.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:27:57</time>
Okay.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:27:57</time>
With storyboarding, slash artistic direction, at this stage, we talk about what art styles they like.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:28:06</time>
A lot of times they'll have a favorite book art style they love.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:28:11</time>
And so a part of my job is to go in and research and find artists that match the art style that they love within the budget that they want.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:28:26</time>
I have a roster of illustrators that I work with that I've vetted or that I've personally worked with.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:28:32</time>
And they're all over the world that I, I have profiles for them.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:28:37</time>
So when I'm working with an author, if I have somebody in my roster that I think is a good fit, I'll.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:28:44</time>
I'll send them a few of the profiles I've put together for them to look through and see.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:28:49</time>
You say the profile.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:28:50</time>
So this is profiles that you've done in conjunction with your client, is that correct?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:28:59</time>
No.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:28:59</time>
So I create a PDF for each illustrator that I work with that creates a little portfolio that shows the art style and the work.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:29:09</time>
Oh, sorry.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:29:10</time>
So you're presenting that to the client after you've done the storyboarding and flushed out that part?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:29:18</time>
It's in conjunction with the storyboarding, so I'm overlapping a little bit.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:29:22</time>
The storyboarding is more.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:29:24</time>
So firstly, figuring out how we're going to divide all of the text amongst the pages and then strategically thinking, like I was saying, about the number of pages, we're thinking, okay, once we've divided up the text, we know, let's say the text takes up 20, 28 pages, let's say there's 14 spreads, then we're going to talk about how are we going to describe the visual that we want to accompany this.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:29:55</time>
And so this is something we work on together.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:29:58</time>
And then I help figure out how to articulate that.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:30:02</time>
Just because you can have an image in your head of what you want, but articulating that in words to an illustrator is a separate challenge and it's hard to do.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:30:12</time>
So the purpose of the storyboard is to figure out how the text is divided, but also figuring out how the art is going to complement the text, what type of art you want.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:30:23</time>
So there's.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:30:24</time>
You could do a double spread.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:30:25</time>
You could do text on one page and then a full page art, or you could do vignettes where it's just like little spot illustration vignettes.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:30:36</time>
There's all sorts of different approaches.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:30:38</time>
Approaches.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:30:38</time>
So storyboarding is working with the author to give my professional opinion on what I think would work really well and have a discussion of if they have a vision.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:30:50</time>
Because some authors have a very clear vision of what they want.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:30:53</time>
When they wrote it, they pictured what they want.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:30:55</time>
I'm trying to essentially interview them and figure out what is that picture in their mind so that I can help.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:31:03</time>
Because at its core, my expertise is as a communicator, as a background in journalism.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:31:10</time>
So I'm basically helping to understand what they want so that I Can communicate
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:31:14</time>
it really effectively once you've done that.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:31:17</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:31:17</time>
And like you said, the overlapping with choosing an illustrator, so that overlaps and.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:31:25</time>
Yeah, we do that at the same time.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:31:26</time>
Okay.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:31:27</time>
Once you've chosen the illustrator, at that point you figured out whether the words are going to, like you said, if the words are going to be on one page, the illustration on the other page, or it's going to be a vignette and work the words in.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:31:42</time>
Or the words are actually work worked into the illustrations.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:31:46</time>
So you've got to that point and now you've handed it over to the illustrator.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:31:52</time>
Yes.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:31:53</time>
So we send it over to the illustrator.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:31:55</time>
The way I work is I. I'll introduce the illustrator to the author, and three of us will be on a thread together and we'll start working together.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:32:06</time>
The way I like to start is always with a sketch.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:32:10</time>
So we'll start with an initial sketch.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:32:12</time>
Just because while everyone's getting to know each other's style and what you like, it's just.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:32:17</time>
You don't want to illustrate the whole page right off the bat and then be like, oh, no, that's not what I wanted.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:32:23</time>
So we take it really step by step, and it's really communicating just back and forth.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:32:29</time>
And a lot of times I'm working with an author right now, where we're in this thread with the illustrator, and it's the three of us.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:32:36</time>
And the illustrator will send a sketch and then the author will email me directly and say, hey, I like this about this.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:32:45</time>
What do you think of this?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:32:46</time>
I thought it was a little busy.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:32:47</time>
And we'll chat.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:32:48</time>
Okay.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:32:49</time>
And sometimes they'll want me to go and just communicate what we've decided to the illustrator.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:32:56</time>
I'm very flexible with how I work in terms of managing the relationships.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:33:01</time>
You know what?
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:33:01</time>
When we started out, when we came up with our idea, we knew we wanted.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:33:06</time>
We knew the name of our character.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:33:08</time>
This in our book series, it's the Adventures of Caboose, the Rocky Mountain Bear.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:33:13</time>
And so obviously it's a mountain bear.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:33:16</time>
And we had a vision of the bear being the father as a black bear and the mother as a grizzly bear.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:33:24</time>
And then you had this baby cub.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:33:27</time>
Because it was Caboose, we knew that had to have some sort of train engineering outfit.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:33:33</time>
We had all this visual.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:33:35</time>
And then what happened was we made a trip to San Francisco and my wife and I went into one of those build a bear stores.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:33:42</time>
And we came up and we actually went in there, and they didn't have the bare clothes, but they had a Bear.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:33:50</time>
And they had all this clothing and we had someone help us, and we put together a sample so that we came back.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:33:56</time>
And as soon as my granddaughter saw this, after we had come back from our trip, she went caboose.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:34:02</time>
So she knew what she had a visual, so did we, of what caboose looked like.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:34:07</time>
And that's what we did.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:34:09</time>
Clear vision.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:34:10</time>
Yeah, we had a clear vision, and then we set a picture to an illustrator, and that's when the illustrator came back and created for us our character, which they look exactly the same.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:34:22</time>
And that's because you had a clear vision.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:34:24</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:34:25</time>
And that laid the foundation for what the rest of the characters would look like and the illustrations.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:34:31</time>
I'm just curious, is there processes when someone will come to you with photographs and stuff like that with their.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:34:38</time>
To support it?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:34:39</time>
Absolutely.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:34:40</time>
Definitely.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:34:41</time>
Many of the books that I work on are inspired by family members or pets or so like Mistress Maisie.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:34:49</time>
We provided the artist with pictures of Tracy, the author, and her husband and her daughter, and she also has a younger daughter.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:35:00</time>
So she made the characters look like them and they actually really look like them, which was really.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:35:07</time>
And I've talked to children's book authors where that's certainly happened.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:35:11</time>
And that's neat.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:35:12</time>
So terrific.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:35:14</time>
I don't want to get you off track too much.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:35:16</time>
Now you're working with the illustrator, and so now you've got the style, you've got the format, you've got the layout, you've got the illustrations coming in.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:35:25</time>
Now what sounds like you got 75% of the work done?
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:35:29</time>
Where do you go from here?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:35:30</time>
Yeah, so the illustration.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:35:32</time>
I always tell authors, illustrations are.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:35:35</time>
Are the longest part of the process and they can take.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:35:38</time>
It really depends on the illustrator and their own process.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:35:41</time>
But generally, like to expect three to four months for illustrations is pretty standard.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:35:48</time>
And so during that process, it's pretty quiet for the author.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:35:52</time>
And for me, it's very much just like overseeing the process.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:35:56</time>
And so that's where I would start working on the next steps, depending on what those are in the background.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:36:04</time>
But once the illustrations are completely done, the next step depends on whether the illustrator is also a graphic designer.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:36:12</time>
Because I have worked with illustrators who do the layout and formatting and some who are just purely illustrators.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:36:19</time>
And once the illustrations are done, if we need to hire a graphic designer, we will have done that already and vetted.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:36:26</time>
But I also do in house graphic design and layout, and I've done that for several of my books.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:36:32</time>
Okay, so you, you.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:36:34</time>
You're taking on that role?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:36:36</time>
I am yes.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:36:37</time>
Okay.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:36:37</time>
And again, I just want my listening audience to know that I had con Lavery, episode 29 on our show, and he talked about book formatting.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:36:47</time>
He's our book formatter, but he is also a graphic designer.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:36:52</time>
Cause he actually designed the front and back cover of the books.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:36:56</time>
He wasn't the illustrator.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:36:58</time>
He just took the illustrations and then formatted the books.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:37:01</time>
And the beautiful thing about Kahn, and we can talk about this, Marley, is that Khan can do an ebook, a hardcover book, and a paperback book.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:37:13</time>
And some book formatters don't have that skill set.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:37:18</time>
So, yeah, I do all of those too.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:37:21</time>
Okay, so you do all three of those book formats?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:37:24</time>
I do.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:37:25</time>
I do all of.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:37:26</time>
I personally do all the formatting or I also have graphic designers that I work with separately.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:37:34</time>
So there are options.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:37:35</time>
And one of my packages includes page design and formatting, graphic design that we do in house.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:37:42</time>
But if they.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:37:44</time>
One of the other packages they go with, if they have a designer they want to go with, or if they have a specific vision, I can facilitate what it is they have in mind.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:37:54</time>
We'll come back to your packages because I just want to take people through the steps and then they'll understand when we talk about your packages, how that all works.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:38:02</time>
We're waiting for the illustrator, and now the illustrations come back and they're handed over to you and you start the formatting process.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:38:12</time>
Now.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:38:13</time>
Have you done the back cover and front cover work in conjunction with the illustrator separately?
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:38:22</time>
What's the timing?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:38:24</time>
I've done both.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:38:25</time>
It really depends.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:38:26</time>
Usually we discuss, at the very least, discuss with the illustrator what we have in mind for the illustrate for the front cover.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:38:35</time>
And sometimes we'll take an existing image from inside the book to use on the COVID Sometimes we'll create a new image completely or tweak an existing image, and it really is unique, depending on which illustrator and what their skills are.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:38:51</time>
So sometimes they will do typography and they'll recommend a few different type options for the title on the COVID Otherwise, hand it off to me.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:39:04</time>
And so I'll do the graphic design and typography layout formatting of the front cover and back cover using the illustrations that we requested.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:39:13</time>
There's a lot of planning that goes into it, so nothing would be last minute or a surprise.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:39:19</time>
During the storyboarding phase, we'll also be thinking about the COVID but at the same time, sometimes you wait until the illustrations are done on the inside so you see.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:39:29</time>
Sometimes you don't know until you see what your favorite and would be great for the COVID to Your point?
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:39:35</time>
I know our front covers.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:39:38</time>
Our first one was.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:39:41</time>
Came first like our front cover.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:39:44</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:39:45</time>
And because we had a specific character in mind, once we had that character, then everything else followed.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:39:53</time>
The second book was different because we had a specific story.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:39:58</time>
It was based on a true event with my grandchildren.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:40:02</time>
And then it turned into this incredible, this really incredible day that we had in our lives and we had the complete story and then the illustrator started and then that kind of triggered the front cover.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:40:16</time>
So to your point, it can vary depending on the circumstances.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:40:20</time>
Now we've got.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:40:22</time>
Everything's coming together.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:40:24</time>
Yes.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:40:25</time>
And now what we haven't mentioned to everyone is we haven't talked about some of that incidentals, like the ISBN, the UPC code, stuff like that.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:40:35</time>
But those are small details that I'm sure that you get involved in right away.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:40:40</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:40:40</time>
Any author that I work with gets an ISBN code under the Garden Wolf Publishing House account, being in Canada through the library and Archives Canada.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:40:51</time>
So I handle all of that.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:40:53</time>
Oh, terrific.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:40:54</time>
So now here, I don't want to say we've got a complete book yet because this brings me to.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:41:01</time>
And for those who listen to episode 76 where Marlee talked about her book, Namaste.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:41:07</time>
Now we're looking at Marley and added value added to the back of her book.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:41:13</time>
If you look at some of the, what I call self published children's books, a lot of them don't have that value added because the self publishing house that they're working with has a specific format.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:41:27</time>
Marlee has a more.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:41:30</time>
I don't wanna say generous.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:41:31</time>
Cause that'd be a good word to use.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:41:32</time>
But bespoke maybe.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:41:34</time>
Bespoke, flexible.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:41:36</time>
You've got some latitude, which I love.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:41:39</time>
Yes.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:41:39</time>
About working with Marley is latitude to me would be important.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:41:44</time>
It's good to see that Marley has this latitude to work with you as a children's book author.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:41:49</time>
Now let's get to that latitude.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:41:52</time>
Talk to us about the value added and how do you recommend it to most of your clients?
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:41:59</time>
Or is it a one off?
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:42:02</time>
What's it look like?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:42:04</time>
That's a really good question.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:42:05</time>
Because of what I specialize in, publishing, which is very much focused on social emotional topics and psychology topics.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:42:16</time>
And because I specialize in working with experts, I always recommend having that content at the back.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:42:25</time>
And it always depends on what the book is and what the purpose of the book is and what the expertise of the author is.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:42:35</time>
So I always come with my recommendations and there are a few factors to consider.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:42:40</time>
So one part of the storyboarding is figuring out once we've filled out all the actual book page pages with art and the text that's only a portion of the book.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:42:53</time>
And then in addition to that, you're going to want to have the copyright page and a title page at the beginning and then in the back, we always do the Illustrator bio and the author bio.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:43:07</time>
And then once we have those basic front of book back book pages, then I look at how many pages that is total and what page count I need it to be.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:43:19</time>
And anyone who's published on Amazon knows that you need to have a specific page number when you're uploading a file.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:43:29</time>
And Amazon is really unique when you're looking at page count because they always add a blank white page at the back with a barcode at the back back of the book.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:43:42</time>
And the total page count needs to be a multiple of four, but you have to do a multiple of four minus one, otherwise you're going to have a whole bunch of blank white pages at the back of your book.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:43:55</time>
So I take that into account when I'm planning.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:43:58</time>
And that's why if somebody's going to be publishing an ebook and a paperback book and a hardcover offset book, all the files need to be different just because of the requirements in the printing or publishing ebook process.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:44:16</time>
Let me pick up on that just for a moment.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:44:18</time>
The nice thing about talking to as many children's book authors that I've talked to is that some of them will do a soft cover and an ebook, or they'll do a hardcover and an ebook, or they'll do all three formats.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:44:33</time>
But at the end of the day, I always say to people, if you can find a formatter that'll do all three for you, that doesn't mean that you're going to actually pay to have them do it.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:44:45</time>
But if you can make that one contact, like our book formatter, for example, can do all three formats.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:44:52</time>
So they can do the hardcover, the softcover and the ebook.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:44:56</time>
And they're very familiar with that.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:44:58</time>
And it makes it much easier to deal with one source.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:45:01</time>
But need that you have that skill.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:45:04</time>
When you're recommending to people about formatting, do you tell them, you know what, let's get all the formats done at once, even if you don't use them all at once.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:45:16</time>
So what's your advice?
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:45:17</time>
What do you normally do?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:45:19</time>
The good thing about.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:45:21</time>
I know we'll talk about packages later, but the good thing about packages is that we're making decisions in advance and it doesn't mean we can't add things later.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:45:30</time>
Make decisions later.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:45:31</time>
But the format decisions of what they want to start with are decided upfront.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:45:38</time>
And so whatever it is they want is what is included.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:45:41</time>
And if they ever want something in the future, that's always something that can
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:45:45</time>
be added so they can go ala carte at some point.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:45:49</time>
So I don't put this on my website that because I really focus on packages.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:45:53</time>
But if somebody comes to me and they have a conversation with me and say, I like this, but can I have this one thing from the other package?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:46:01</time>
I will always say yes, but I just don't sell a la carte services.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:46:06</time>
Okay, But I'm very flexible, as you can see, in every way, because honestly, I'm just very passionate and love what I do.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:46:14</time>
And I really want to make the best book possible.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:46:17</time>
And I want the authors to have an amazing experience too.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:46:20</time>
It's interesting because again, I'm hoping that aspiring children's book authors are listening to the program and getting some value from this.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:46:28</time>
And one of the things that I found is about half of my guests are either teachers or former teachers or early development educators.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:46:39</time>
And what I'm finding lately is a lot of them create a lesson plan to support their children's book.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:46:46</time>
And I, you know what, Because I don't come from a elementary or early educator development background, I I just never even given that any thought.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:46:56</time>
And then all of a sudden I'm getting these people telling me, oh yeah, we create a lesson plan so our books go into the schools.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:47:02</time>
There's a lesson plan to support it.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:47:04</time>
You mentioned that you work with these experts in putting their children's books together.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:47:10</time>
Do they come to you and say, I'm going to put together a formal lesson plan or what's their back end look like in terms of supporting material?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:47:19</time>
Usually.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:47:20</time>
And I just have to say that teachers and psychologists are the two professions that constantly come up and say that they have children's book ideas and like they have the best ideas.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:47:33</time>
So I'm not surprised that you talk to a lot of teachers because they appreciate children's books so much.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:47:40</time>
I'm trying to think if I have published for a teacher.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:47:43</time>
I actually haven't worked with a teacher yet, I will say, but I definitely have worked with schools.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:47:51</time>
So I do, I understand.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:47:53</time>
I have spoken with schools about lesson plans or maybe doing workshops with kids in terms of creating those resources at the back of the book.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:48:02</time>
Generally, the people that I'm working with haven't necessarily put thought or haven't really established exactly what they would want to put.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:48:13</time>
And sometimes they hadn't even thought of putting something at the back, and they're like, that's such a good idea.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:48:19</time>
And do you recommend that all the time, the value added?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:48:22</time>
Oh, yes.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:48:23</time>
Every book.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:48:23</time>
I've never been a book where I don't recommend it because of the type of books I publish.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:48:28</time>
Absolutely.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:48:28</time>
And I just want everybody to understand that.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:48:31</time>
And again, I don't want to take away from what Marley is doing because she's working with experts, but I'm not a expert in the mental health field.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:48:42</time>
But what I've done is I just realized the value because I believe that myself and my grandchildren are storytellers.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:48:50</time>
So when you look at the value add at the back of our books, it's all about storytelling.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:48:55</time>
We add pages to help people not only write a story, I'm talking about a child and an adult or a grandparent parent.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:49:05</time>
And then we actually have illustration boxes built, railway tracks, picture frames where they can draw.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:49:13</time>
And then my youngest granddaughter, she actually is a little bit of an artist, and she shows you how to take your plushie and turn it into a character.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:49:24</time>
And so that.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:49:26</time>
So that's our value add at the end of our books.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:49:28</time>
But I just want everybody to understand that I believe in the value add.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:49:33</time>
And if you were working with Marlee, she believes in the value add in each of your children's books.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:49:39</time>
So thank you for sharing that.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:49:41</time>
Yeah, thank you.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:49:43</time>
So now we've got all of those steps done.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:49:45</time>
We've got the value add pages created.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:49:49</time>
Do you have a specific number that you like to work with in terms of value add at the back of the book, or is there a range?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:49:58</time>
Honestly, I really like free flow it with the author.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:50:03</time>
Depending on all of the unique factors and what they also want to include.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:50:10</time>
I will always give my suggestions and they can come up with their own ideas, and we'll brainstorm together and we'll see what we feel would be the best fit.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:50:20</time>
Plus, it's also a matter of fitting within the page count, making sure that whatever we do.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:50:25</time>
But generally we would have, like, really one or two focused ones.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:50:33</time>
But I'm working on a longer book right now.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:50:35</time>
This is.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:50:35</time>
I'm actually working on a book that is the longest one I've worked on.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:50:40</time>
It's an illustrated early chapter book, like fully illustrated.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:50:44</time>
And this is a unique one, actually not within my psychology focus.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:50:49</time>
It's a mortgage broker who wants to educate kids about financial literacy.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:50:54</time>
Okay.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:50:54</time>
But at the back, we actually have.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:50:56</time>
Have quite a few.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:50:57</time>
We might have to narrow it down, but we have about five different.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:51:01</time>
I Want to pick up on that for a moment?
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:51:03</time>
Because Marley used a unique technique in her book, and what she did is she has a scan code at the back.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:51:11</time>
Yeah.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:51:12</time>
Again, the beautiful thing about it, for the most part, you want to keep that range of 32 to 48 pages in a children's book by adding the QR code at the back.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:51:24</time>
It, in Marlee's case, if you scan the QR code, it drives you to her website, and that's where you can get extra value add.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:51:34</time>
So it doesn't take away from the book, it doesn't make the book longer, but it gives you access to more resources and a very nice technique.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:51:43</time>
And I just wanted to share that because, again, we're talking about children's books and adding value, but how do you make sure you don't get too carried away with how much value add you you're doing?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:51:54</time>
Exactly.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:51:55</time>
Yeah, I know.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:51:56</time>
That's a really good point.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:51:57</time>
And the QR code is such a great way because sometimes you have so many ideas but are limited within the physical book.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:52:03</time>
So you're exactly sure.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:52:05</time>
And I developed a business card, and I know the listeners can't see it, but on my front of my business card, I have a QR code.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:52:13</time>
And if you go to that QR code, the beautiful thing about it, it takes you right to the latest episode of our podcast show.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:52:21</time>
So it doesn't take you to the first one, it takes you to the latest one.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:52:25</time>
Depending on when I hand out my business card.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:52:28</time>
If Marley's show was published that week and someone got my business card and scanned it, it would take everybody to that latest episode.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:52:37</time>
And it got me thinking, is that maybe I add the QR code into our children's book just to drive them again to the website.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:52:46</time>
But thank you.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:52:47</time>
So I'm curious.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:52:49</time>
We've gone through the process.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:52:50</time>
I want to just talk to you before we get off all the roles of publishing.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:52:56</time>
Talk to us a little bit about when you started out.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:52:59</time>
What were some of the biggest myths you were hearing from the people that you were talking to that actually got you excited about creating a publishing house?
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:53:08</time>
What were some of the myths that you were hearing that you said, oh, man, I gotta start my own publishing company because I gotta take away some of these myths.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:53:18</time>
I feel like there's a lot, and it's not so much myths, but I feel like opacity.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:53:23</time>
I just feel like it's very overwhelming and it's hard to find the information you're looking for.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:53:29</time>
A lot of the times I don't know, I guess I've maybe taken it on as a personal mission to educate people about the realities as I know them.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:53:39</time>
Maybe I'm missing information.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:53:40</time>
I'm always learning.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:53:41</time>
I love learning new things.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:53:43</time>
But for me, it's really helping people figure out the right thing for them.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:53:47</time>
And I really believe that there's no one size fits all for anything.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:53:51</time>
And so that's really what I hope to provide with my services is really the ultimate goal is figuring out what is the best fit for that unique person and their story and their goals for their book.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:54:08</time>
I love your flexibility.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:54:09</time>
So anyone listening?
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:54:11</time>
Again, Marley's got flexibility, which I think is very important.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:54:15</time>
You talked earlier, Marlee, about purpose, purpose of your book.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:54:21</time>
And sometimes the purpose, what you have in your mind in the beginning turns out to be something different.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:54:31</time>
And Marley's a prime example.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:54:33</time>
On episode 76, we talked about her book Namus Day and how at the time, Marley just wanted to get the book in her hands and feel the printed book.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:54:43</time>
That was important to her.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:54:44</time>
And then it evolved because she went out and did all these activities such as book readings and events, that people were coming up and asking Marley, how do I do this?
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:54:56</time>
Marley recognized that, wow, there's a need for this.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:55:00</time>
And I have that ability.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:55:02</time>
Again, pretty remarkable.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:55:05</time>
Remember, to everyone listening, is that the purpose of your book in the beginning obviously takes on a different form as you go on your journey.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:55:17</time>
And if you add that value added in the beginning, it might give you some clarity on where you're going with your book.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:55:24</time>
Absolutely.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:55:25</time>
And I think being open minded to what comes your way, because the purpose of your book will show itself when you see how people react or just the reactions and opportunities.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:55:39</time>
Not that you, not that things just come your way.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:55:42</time>
You have to make things happen.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:55:44</time>
But I think just being open minded to maybe like you'll have different options, opportunities that you hadn't pictured.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:55:52</time>
I want to start getting into some of your packaging, pricing, and that part of the side of the business.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:55:57</time>
We've talked about traditional publishing where you either get a book advance and what they do is they get the book advance, but then the traditional publisher needs to sell so many books before you start seeing any other money.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:56:11</time>
They like to get their book advance back and then they may give you, I think, Marlee, we had talked maybe 6 to 10% or somewhere in there, but you pretty well give up all the rights to your book.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:56:24</time>
And then we've talked about, and Marley has had more experience at this than me, where there's a hybrid publisher, where they come in they not only charge you for putting your entire book together, but they also charge you at the back end a percentage of your sales.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:56:42</time>
And Marlee doesn't do that.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:56:44</time>
Marley, explain that to the listening audience about your services.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:56:50</time>
And maybe at this point, this is maybe where you bring in the packages and talk about the back end.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:56:57</time>
Sure.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:56:57</time>
In terms of royalties, the reason I decided not to do royalties is twofold.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:57:03</time>
Firstly, coming in as an author, I understand how hard it is to make any money selling books to begin with.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:57:10</time>
And, and so giving any percentage of that away, I just feel like it doesn't really make sense for anyone and it would just take a small amount and just make it even smaller for two parties.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:57:22</time>
And then logistically, as a single entrepreneur running a business having to manage royalties, maybe it's not as complicated as it seems to me, but it seems very complicated and it's not something that I want would really like to focus my time on.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:57:39</time>
I'd much rather focus my time on creating a really amazing, top quality product and then guiding the people that I'm working with into other avenues beyond selling books.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:57:54</time>
And while you should think about how you can sell your books and promote your book and try to get it in as many hands as possible, let's
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:58:02</time>
really hone in on that because to me, what you're doing is very unique because you're really getting your clients to think about the purpose of their books.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:58:14</time>
Because a lot of people, like we just discussed whole purpose was to get the book in their hand.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:58:21</time>
They didn't think it further, they just thought of immediate.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:58:25</time>
And what you're talking about is actually developing a real purpose behind the children's books.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:58:31</time>
Yes, yes.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:58:33</time>
And when I first meet with somebody, I've hit them with some hard truths because I don't think a lot of people are going to tell them that they're not going to make a lot of money selling books.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:58:43</time>
It's not going to be your new day job.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:58:45</time>
You're not going to have passive income that's going to support you and your family.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:58:49</time>
This isn't what people want to hear, but it's the reality for the majority of authors.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:58:54</time>
And it's interesting.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:58:55</time>
I talked to an author, Darcy Guyan, episode 17, and he writes books on primarily helicopters and planes, children's books.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:59:05</time>
And he told me when he first started doing the school readings, he go into the school, the first thing the children would say to him, oh, you must be a millionaire.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:59:16</time>
Because they thought as a published children's book author, he had millions and millions of dollars in sales.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>00:59:24</time>
So that misconception starts at a very young age.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:59:28</time>
Yes, it's super interesting.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:59:30</time>
And so like I'm pretty active on LinkedIn and I post a lot of hard truths about the publishing industry because I don't think a lot of people are talking about it.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:59:39</time>
About the median author, like the median traditionally published author makes $2,000 a year.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:59:48</time>
The median.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:59:49</time>
And this is from the Authors Guild, they did a survey in 2023.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:59:53</time>
As you can see, I really like statistics.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>00:59:55</time>
In the same survey, the median full time author made $10,000 a year.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:00:01</time>
And this is in traditional publishing.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:00:03</time>
I talk about it myself on the show because again, I'm trying to give people reality.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:00:10</time>
And the average book sells.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:00:13</time>
Published book sells between 200 and 500 copies over the lifetime of the book.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:00:20</time>
Yes.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:00:20</time>
You know what, just do the math and you'll figure out you'll never see the, the return on your investment, not including your time.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:00:29</time>
So that's what I love about what you're doing, working with experts and getting them to think outside the book.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:00:37</time>
And that's what I'm trying to do.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:00:39</time>
And that's why I always ask the question about what's your children's book business plan?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:00:45</time>
Yes, yes.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:00:46</time>
And that's very important to me.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:00:48</time>
Even if you don't have one.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:00:49</time>
As long as I've triggered that click lot for you to think about.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:00:53</time>
Yeah, exactly.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:00:55</time>
And I don't think it takes away from creativity and from the meaning.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:01:00</time>
I think that's something I grappled with because I consider myself a creative first and foremost.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:01:06</time>
So figuring out how to run a business and think from a business perspective while staying true to my values and morals, it's been a year long, like mental process of trying to figure that out.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:01:20</time>
But so just to continue what you were saying before, in my first conversation with an author, after dropping the hard truths and telling them about book sales, I always say, especially because I'm speaking with experts, not that this can't apply to any author, but just it's particularly relevant more to the experts I'm working with because within their industries there are conferences, there are workshops, and when you're a published author, it puts you at the top of the list as a compelling speaker at a conference.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:01:52</time>
And I know that because I've spoken with people who run conferences and they said that they would choose a published author over a non published author for two equal experts.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:02:01</time>
So I always say, would you be open to speaking about your book?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:02:06</time>
And that's why I think it's so important that your book is about a subject that you're excited to talk about, and it relates to either your expertise or a personal experience you've been through where you don't have to stress about talking about it because you want to talk about it.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:02:22</time>
You can help so many people, and it would just be an easy way to expand whatever your business is, whatever your.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:02:30</time>
Whatever you do for work, whether you're a mortgage broker or whether you're a psychologist or a teacher.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:02:37</time>
If you're interested in using the book to help other people, that makes much more sense to think of as a revenue stream than selling books.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:02:47</time>
And selling books will come with that.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:02:49</time>
Absolutely.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:02:50</time>
A lot of times I've talked to children's book authors.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:02:54</time>
I had a gal on.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:02:55</time>
She has a book series called Helo Girls.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:02:58</time>
She's a helicopter pilot.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:03:00</time>
She was in the American Forces as a helicopter pilot.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:03:05</time>
And she's written a series of books called Hilo Girls, episode 35.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:03:08</time>
Cody Bogart.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:03:09</time>
What's interesting is that she told me that she gets invited to conferences, and a lot of times the conference, the people putting on the conference will buy a book for every single conference attendee, and then they will ask her if she'll sit at the back of the room as part of the conference and.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:03:31</time>
And sign the book that they purchased for the.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:03:34</time>
For the attendee.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:03:36</time>
Pretty cool.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:03:36</time>
Yeah, it's so cool.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:03:38</time>
And that's exactly what I talk to the authors about, because that's how you do it.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:03:43</time>
Like, I've spoken to people in very niche subjects.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:03:47</time>
I spoke to somebody who's an engineer in, like, the mining industry, and he was saying how it's really hard to explain to your kids what you do for a living.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:03:58</time>
And it would be so cool to have a book that talks about what they do as engineers and how he can see that being sold at a conference.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:04:09</time>
Because everybody there, a lot of them are parents, and they would love a book that would help explain what they do to their kids.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:04:17</time>
There's just.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:04:17</time>
So you have to think outside the box.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:04:19</time>
Absolutely.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:04:20</time>
I love that.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:04:21</time>
I want to make sure they understand your services.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:04:23</time>
Because.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:04:24</time>
Because I don't.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:04:25</time>
Because that's part of our discussion is people understanding what.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:04:29</time>
You know, like you said earlier, when it comes to self publishing or hybrid publishing, publishing, it's open to a lot of interpretation.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:04:39</time>
I want to make sure people are clear on what it is that you do specifically and what you offer.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:04:46</time>
Yeah, I think where we left off was when the illustrations are done, where I take the book and I do the graphic design of the front cover, back cover, I do all the interior design and layout, typography, the formatting for all the different formats, but the things that are included and not, they vary on my website.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:05:09</time>
And one thing I want to say is that I believe very strongly in price transparency.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:05:15</time>
As a consumer, it really frustrates me when I don't know how much someone's charging for a service and it feels sneaky.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:05:22</time>
So all my prices are on my website, very clearly on my services page and anyone can go look at them.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:05:28</time>
So I just want to put that out there.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:05:30</time>
So in addition to doing all the layout and formatting, then I always recommend, even if somebody is going to be printing hardcover in China, offset printing, I always recommend they also go on Amazon just because there are so many opportunities that Amazon provides and there's also many marketing opportunities.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:05:53</time>
I'm glad you brought that up because people always say Amazon and all this money and all that.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:06:00</time>
But to Marley's point, when I first started this podcast show I talked about we would have primarily our listeners would be in North America, Canada, the U.S. and that would be it.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:06:14</time>
And, and last count I looked, we were at in 40 different countries that our podcast get listened to.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:06:22</time>
I'm not trying to brag about the 40 different countries.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:06:25</time>
What I'm trying to say is that our listeners are listening to you as a children's book author or as a publisher who are in Germany, who are in Singapore, who are in Australia, the uk, all over the world.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:06:40</time>
And guess where Amazon is.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:06:42</time>
If anyone who's ever published a book on Amazon, have a look at where your book gets distributed.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:06:50</time>
It's worldwide, so you need to be there because I can't think of anybody else that has that type of distribution.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:06:59</time>
I agree.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:07:00</time>
And I also think a lot of people come to me.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:07:02</time>
A large majority come with a specific budget and they don't have an unlimited budget.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:07:07</time>
And a lot of people can't afford to spend to do offset printing and paying upfront for the hardcover books.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:07:14</time>
And that's okay.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:07:15</time>
They can go on Amazon and there.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:07:18</time>
And not just Amazon, there's other ways to print author copies in smaller quantities.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:07:23</time>
IngramSpark.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:07:24</time>
There's also a website I discovered recently called Mixam M I X A M and in Canada it's CA.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:07:30</time>
In the US it's dot com.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:07:32</time>
They have an Australian version and I printed some books and they were very good quality and it's very fast.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:07:38</time>
So that's just another alternative for those who want to order in smaller quantities.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:07:43</time>
Obviously it costs a little bit more per book when you order smaller quantities.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:07:47</time>
But some are more reasonable than others.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:07:50</time>
But to say for Amazon, part of what I do also is I set up the seller, the page for the book, it belongs to them.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:07:58</time>
All payments go directly to the author.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:08:01</time>
But I will set it up fully for them and put the proper keywords and select the proper categories through a program that I use.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:08:10</time>
I use Publisher Rocket to help me research the correct or most optimal categories for visibility for the page, for search and making sure that it is a good fit for the topic but also less competitive.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:08:25</time>
And, and I create the description and all that stuff and just use some content strategy to create that for them and then I do the uploading.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:08:34</time>
So like I'll do all of that as well.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:08:36</time>
And from a sales, marketing and distribution.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:08:39</time>
Now distribution's a little different cause we just talked about that.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:08:43</time>
So from a sales and marketing standpoint, do you leave your clients with a one pager or what kind of guidance do you give them now that they've got their book and they're ready to go?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:08:54</time>
Yeah, it's a range of how of what they choose.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:08:57</time>
So like the lowest offering I have is I'll include three one hour video sessions where we can discuss any topic of their choosing where we can work on something together.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:09:11</time>
I can talk to them and guide them and they can record it.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:09:14</time>
So if they have questions about marketing, I can tell them a range of marketing suggestions.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:09:20</time>
For example, I have a number one Amazon Bestseller marketing campaign.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:09:24</time>
I call it number one Amazon Bestseller because I have yet to run it without someone becoming a number one Amazon Bestseller.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:09:32</time>
And I like to emphasize that this is a credibility builder.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:09:37</time>
This is not a revenue generation strategy, it's marketing.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:09:42</time>
And then you can put on your website that you're a number one Amazon bestseller.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:09:47</time>
And it's a strategy that I do on Amazon by using KDP Select.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:09:52</time>
And I've done trial and error with my own books to figure out what works.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:09:56</time>
And it's an email marketing campaign that I run through this company that has tens of thousands of really engaged readers who are so excited to download free books.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:10:09</time>
And like I just ran one at the end of December for one of my authors and he had 800 downloads in a day.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:10:18</time>
It's just a way to get visibility and then you can get ratings and then you go to number one and Amazon reads that in the algorithm and sees that you're popular.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:10:28</time>
So it's really, that's just one of many marketing offerings that I have.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:10:33</time>
Two of my plans that I.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:10:35</time>
Two of my packages that I offer include an extensive marketing plan.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:10:39</time>
That I put together and everything else.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:10:42</time>
It's customized and unique to the person.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:10:45</time>
So I will do research and put together an extensive document that outlines timelines of when you should do things and prepare things according to the publishing schedule, such as when to apply for awards and which awards you should apply for that will be the best fit for your topic.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:11:04</time>
What local events are happening, where they live that might be worthwhile for them to get a table at and do different contacts for school boards that would be good for them to reach out to a list of different marketing opportunities, like what I said with the number one Amazon bestseller, different programs they can do, how they could do a publicity blast.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:11:27</time>
I have a connection where you can do, like, a PR letter that you send to media.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:11:35</time>
So, like, you can do a blast to 3000 media in your niche that.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:11:40</time>
That most people will get at least a bit of coverage from that.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:11:43</time>
I'll also include a list of specific podcasts, such as yourself, that would be a great place for them to reach out to, because this is great.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:11:52</time>
What you offer is incredible for authors to get out there.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:11:57</time>
It's really serving a lot of authors and this.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:12:00</time>
And if you're okay with it, I would love to recommend your podcast to my authors because I think it's amazing for authors to get out there and to reach out to bloggers.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:12:10</time>
Bloggers are a really great way to just have conversations about your book and get it on the Internet
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:12:18</time>
for sure.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:12:19</time>
Absolutely.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:12:20</time>
As we come close to the end here, first of all, I love your enthusiasm.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:12:24</time>
I would just work with you just because of your enthusiasm.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:12:28</time>
So thank you, Marley.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:12:30</time>
I think everybody gets a real sense of who you are and the role that you play, and I'm glad that, like you said, you're transparent.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:12:38</time>
I encourage everybody to go to Marley's website because we will definitely have links to her website.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:12:45</time>
So go there, take your time, and look at what Marley is offering.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:12:50</time>
Hopefully, if you're listening to this, you've already listened to the entire episode and you understand the role that Marty this long.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:12:59</time>
I'm very impressed because I blob a lot.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:13:02</time>
No, it's worked out good.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:13:03</time>
Marley, is there anything else you'd like to add that maybe I've missed before we close the show?
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:13:10</time>
The only thing I just would want to add is anyone listening to this who has an idea and they feel passionate about it, and they think that it would be meaningful to create, that they should do it.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:13:22</time>
And if they have a question, they can message me, and I'd be very happy to answer their question.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:13:27</time>
And help.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:13:28</time>
Terrific.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:13:28</time>
Thank you.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:13:29</time>
Marley, thank you so much for being a guest on the Adventures in the Heart of Children's Book Authors Podcast.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:13:35</time>
Your generosity of time and insights.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:13:38</time>
Wow.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:13:38</time>
We got a lot of value here.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:13:39</time>
We'll significantly benefit aspiring children's book authors.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:13:44</time>
We promise to provide our audience with links to Marley's social media and her website.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:13:50</time>
And feel free to share this episode with anyone who you've been talking to who wants to publish a children's book they don't have an idea how to start.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:14:00</time>
Just reach out to Marley at gardenwolf Publishing House and you'll find all her details in the show notes.
<cite>Speaker B</cite>
<time>01:14:08</time>
Thank you.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:14:09</time>
Thank you so much.
<cite>Speaker A</cite>
<time>01:14:10</time>
Rick.

How to Publish a Children's Book (Insights from Author Marlee Kostiner)

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